Dream kitchen renovation ruined by a scam

(MUSIC INTRO) [00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam. [00:00:04] Suzi Beerman: People want to think that it's never going to happen to them. That they're too smart,

they're protected, you know. And there were a lot of comments like, "Well everybody knows that you do this" and "How could you let that happen?" Like how stupid. And

it's like, I'm not stupid. I got tricked. It's a multibillion-dollar industry to trick us. They come up with new things to manipulate us and steal our money every day. 

(MUSIC SEGUE) [00:00:35] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:00:40] Bob: Anyone who's ever lived through a home renovation project

knows how stressful that can be, and that goes double when a kitchen is being renovated. There's always delays, disruptions, compromises, not to mention where do you make a cup of tea

when your kitchen sink isn't even there? As we've said many times, criminals target victims when they're in high stress situations and today's story shows how vulnerable

people going through a renovation can be. It's also a pretty shocking crime that, well, as you'll see, certainly fits the description of a perfect scam. Let's meet

today's guests, a charming couple who recently moved from the Seattle area to Arizona with dreams of beautiful sunsets and an amazing kitchen where they'd entertain family and

friends and years. [00:01:31] Suzi Beerman: I'm Suzi Beerman, and I live in Oro Valley, Arizona, just north of Tucson. [00:01:36] Gary Beerman: Gary Beerman, and I live in the same

place as Suzi does, it's Oro Valley, just north of Tucson. [00:01:41] Bob: That is a crazy coincidence. [00:01:42] Suzi Beerman: Wait, are you the guy that I saw in the hallway earlier?

[00:01:46] Gary Beerman: Yes. [00:01:47] Bob: I hope he's an invited guest is all I have to say. [00:01:50] Suzi Beerman: Yes, he's, he's, he's a, yes, co-owner and uh,

chief bottle washer. [00:01:58] Bob: Gary stole Suzi's heart many years ago by his mastery in the kitchen. [00:02:03] Bob: I read that, Suzi, there were times when you would just buy

ingredients and sort of throw it on Gary and say, make dinner. Is that true? [00:02:11] Suzi Beerman: Well yeah, 'cause it is, it can be kind of a pain in the butt to try to figure out

what you're going to eat every night. Oh gosh, you know, what do we have in the fridge? Do I need to like after work go out and shop, you know? And so there's this thing that we

did in college called, "I'll buy, if you fly." So nobody had any food, but if somebody could go out to the pizza shop and pick up a pizza, they would do that effort, and the

other person would pay for it. So it's like a division of duties back then. So our version of that was, you know when Gary was kind of like, oh, do I have to figure out what to make? It

wasn't the skill that wasn't there, it was just like give me inspiration. So I would go to the grocery story on the way home, I'd pick up some protein, I'd pick up some

veggies. I might pick up a sauce, I might pick up a, you know some herbs, and I would come, or some starch, and I would be like, "Hey, guess what, make this into something." And so

he would do that and it really mirrored our first meal together where he was trying to figure out something to make from my little, tiny kitchen that was more like a closet, and I was like,

"Dude, you're never going to find anything to make ever in there. There's nothing, there's no..." you know so I'd come back out and he's made this

beautiful pasta dish with like fresh tomato sauce, and I was like, I think I'll keep you. [00:03:37] Bob: I'll keep you. Hah. Gary is a physician associate, and Suzi worked in

media, but for both of them, entertaining is a real passion. So when they make the big decision to leave Seattle for Arizona, finding a home with a nice kitchen is a real priority, but

things don't quite work out that way. They did start out great. [00:04:00] Suzi Beerman: So we retired in May, we put the house on the market in June. We came down here a couple times

to look for houses and actually on the last day of a 10-day house search I found this house, even though our realtor did a fabulous job of getting us this house, but I found this one and I

was like, hey, that one looks kinda nice. Let's go take a look. And we were able to close on this house and the sale of our house in Newcastle on the same day, that's how good

our... [00:04:33] Bob: You are kidding! [00:04:33] Gary Beerman: No, that's unusual. [00:04:34] Suzi Beerman: Our realtors, we had two amazing realtors and they just, they were, they

were the best ever both of them. [00:04:43] Bob: I mean that never happens, so that's amazing. [00:04:45] Gary Beerman: That never happens, Bob. That was uh 9 o'clock in the

morning on our house in Newcastle, Washington, um, closed, and at noon the one down here closed 'cause they transferred the funds, the majority of them, to paying for this house.

[00:04:57] Suzi Beerman: It was carefully orchestrated. [00:04:59] Gary Beerman: Yes. [00:05:01] Bob: The new home in Arizona is perfect except for one thing. [00:05:06] Suzi Beerman: And

moved here in July of 2022, bought this wonderful house in this wonderful neighborhood with amazing views, and just, you know, just loved being here in the sunshine, uh but we knew that the

kitchen that was part of this house was, you know, training wheels kitchen, not... [00:05:26] Gary Beerman: Yes. Basically nonfunctional. [00:05:28] Suzi Beerman: Yeah, not, not the kitchen

that we needed for baking, cooking, entertaining, drink mixing, you know all the... [00:05:37] Bob: Bet there was a microwave on a wheeled cart is what you're saying. [00:05:40] Suzi

Beerman: Yeah. [00:05:41] Gary Beerman: Basically that, that's just about it. [00:05:42] Suzi Beerman: Well yeah, yeah. [00:05:45] Bob: And Gary, well he'd have trouble working his

magic in a training wheels kitchen, and he has a lot of magic to work. [00:05:53] Gary Beerman: I have 600 cookbooks, more than 600 cookbooks in the collection, so um, ... [00:05:59] Suzi

Beerman: We had to get rid of some of them when we moved. [00:06:02] Gary Beerman: I had about 800, we had to leave some of them. I donated a whole bunch of them, so... [00:06:06] Bob: Gary,

where does your love of cooking come from? [00:06:08] Gary Beerman: I think probably both my mom and dad. My dad uh, he was a contractor engineer architect, and but he uh loved to cook. And

um, when they got married in New York, they jumped in the car and drove all the way to Los Angeles and never looked back. And so they allowed me to be in the kitchen with them. My mom had

me help her, and my dad, I watched him and learned to barbecue, and that's, that's basically it. [00:06:31] Bob: And what does it mean to you to be able to cook for friends and

family? [00:06:35] Gary Beerman: Oh it's, it's my way of giving something to somebody. It's sharing is I think one of the most important things in the world, and I think

that's a lot why people travel. They go to different countries and, and if you look at the different countries of the world and almost every single one of the cultures um, eating

together and, and feeding together, drinking wine together is part of the culture. And, and that is just an important part of life, I think. [00:07:02] Bob: And sharing that is now even more

important because Gary and Suzi are essentially starting over in Arizona. [00:07:10] Bob: Entertaining would be even more important when you're picking up your life and going to a new

place, right? [00:07:15] Suzi Beerman: Yeah, and we also, I mean we just, we, um, Gary has always been the head cook in our family, and I noticed early on in our relationship that he would

come home from a day of work, and as much as he loved his work, he would just be just like in this great Zen, you know, disco jazz kind of phase where he would be cooking after work, and he

would just be, he'd be happy, you know. And I was happy 'cause I didn't have to cook. Um... [00:07:48] Bob: You got to eat. [00:07:49] Suzi Beerman: You know he just, he,

he's a great cook, and that's a huge part of, you know his upbringing and my upbringing, and kind of how we live in the world, that we don’t, we're not, we're not takeout

people. We're, let's make it ourselves people. [00:08:05] Bob: Okay, so what were the plans for the kitchen? [00:08:09] Gary Beerman: Well, the kitchen had, it was, the house was

built in 1986, and I, I came from a construction family, my dad was a builder. And um, the stove was original stove that had the, the flip-up back as a vent, and if anybody understands

physics, um, heat goes up not down. So you, you put this vent up and of course all the smoke goes in the room and only about 1% of it goes down the vent. [00:08:34] Suzi Beerman:

There's really not smoke when you cook, Gary Beerman. [00:08:37] Gary Beerman: Yeah, right. So it, it had that, it had, the only thing that it had was any good, it had a new dishwasher.

The kitchen was pretty much closed off from the great room and so you couldn't hear people. If you were in the kitchen you, you couldn't hear your guests who were out here. It had

an old double stove that was electric and it was, well I, you know they, they would say in certain languages POS but I, I don't know, I don't think we're allowed to say that,

but... (chuckles) uh, and it was, the, the sink was just a, it was, it was falling down, um, it had an old garbage disposal. It just, the whole thing was poorly designed. The cabinets were

horrible. They ... [00:09:18] Suzi Beerman: Tell us what you really feel. [00:09:20] Gary Beerman: Yeah. [00:09:21] Suzi Beerman: How did you really feel about that kitchen? [00:09:22] Gary

Beerman: I mean I can't even tell you, Bob, It was, it's like, oh my God, but the, the view was so great, Bob, that it's like okay, well that's, that's the first

thing that we'll fix on this house is the kitchen. And that was exciting. It's like okay, let's, let's do the kitchen. [00:09:37] Bob: So soon after moving in, Gary and

Suzi start interviewing design companies. It takes almost 6 months, but finally crews come in and get to work on remaking the place. It's no small commitment. [00:09:52] Bob: So, oh

God, so just for somebody who hasn't been through this, Suzi, why is it so stressful? [00:09:57] Suzi Beerman: Oh my goodness, well first of all everything that you've taken for

granted like, oh, having a kitchen sink, oh, having somewhere to wash your dishes, oh, having some place to actually make tea in the morning, or you know like hey, I would love to have a

slice of toast. Wait I, you know, or you know frying an egg outside in the, on the barbecue grill. So all the things that you take for granted about your kitchen are gone, and you know

you're, you're washing dishes in the bathroom tub and you're cooking outdoors, you're, you don't know where anything is. You know it's a mess, but you do it

knowing that there's an end goal. You do it knowing that you're going to have a kitchen that you can enjoy with your family and your friends and each other, and you know, make

those core memories. [00:10:46] Bob: But it’s comp… you mentioned using the same teacup for six months basically, right? [00:10:50] Suzi Beerman: I did. I did. I still when I pull that one

out, I'm like, hmm, not you again. [00:10:56] Bob: (laughs) Okay, so um, and, and of course, as we know, every construction project runs perfectly smoothly and everything happens

exactly on time, right? [00:11:06] Gary Beerman: Yeah, right. [00:11:08] Bob: As I'm sure you know, things often don't go according to plan, but Gary and Suzi keep their good humor

through it all and in fact, they really kind of enjoy the experience. [00:11:19] Suzi Beerman: Well, you know, Bob, just a quick aside; Gary was cooking for the crew the entire time.

[00:11:25] Bob: Oh, nice. [00:11:26] Gary Beerman: I'd make them lunch, and... [00:11:28] Suzi Beerman: You know he just, well that's the kind of person he is, like we were still,

we were cooking for these guys and again, they're a different company than the one that you know we were dealing with for the design. These guys knew they could come in, we could, we

would make them lunch, we would talk to them, we'd hang out with them, and our love of sharing food never went away even though we were cooking outside. [00:11:54] Bob: Work on the

project ebbs and flows for a couple of months, but then when they're out of town for a quick trip, and why did these things always happen when you're out of town? There's big

news. The cabinets come in. That's great, but it also means a big payment has come due for $61,000. [00:12:15] Suzi Beerman: Um, this payment that was coming due was supposed to be like

at the two/thirds mark, and it was supposed to cover the countertops and the cabinetry. Um, so the--, so we knew it was coming but we didn't know exactly how much it was going to be.

January, about January 15th of last year, um, they said, "Well you know your cabinets are going to be delivered, your countertop, we need that money." And I said, "Great. Um,

we're not in town." And they said, "Well we need it, we have to have it now because we have to pay for the cabinets and the countertop." And we were like, "Sure,

okay, well what do you suggest 'cause we're not home." And they said, "Well we can do a wire transfer." And I said, well, yeah, we've done those before.

Let's go ahead and do wire transfer. [00:13:03] Bob: Where were you guys on, on vacation by the way? [00:13:05] Suzi Beerman: Mexico. [00:13:06] Bob: You were in Mexico. Okay, so, so

you're like another reason, of course there's urgency here is you, we all know if there's a contractor ready to do work, you don’t want to have any delays, right? So you want

to get them the money as soon as possible so they can move forward, right? [00:13:19] Gary Beerman: Exactly. [00:13:20] Suzi Beerman: Of course. [00:13:21] Bob: So to avoid any delays, they

get to work on the wire transfer while they're out of the country. [00:13:28] Suzi Beerman: And I, we were emailing back and forth and I said, "Can you send me an invoice,"

because we have to request this money from our retirement accounts, our investment accounts and they take a couple of days to get it out of one account and ready to go to the, to the bank.

They sent me the invoice. Then I said, "Okay, I need your account information so that I can process this with my investment group." And then she forwarded me, through her email

account but on her cellphone, the account information. So I had already received the invoice and now I was receiving the account information. [00:14:08] The wiring instructions basically,

right? [00:14:11] Suzi Beerman: Yes. [00:14:11] Gary Beerman: Yes. [00:14:11] Suzi Beerman: And so basically all that was, was here's our routing and here's our account. [00:14:18]

Bob: So Suzi takes the wire information and calls her financial institution which calls her back to confirm the transaction. [00:14:26] Suzi Beerman: "Hey, are these the account

numbers that you received?" And I looked at the email and I verbally said, "These are the account numbers." And they said, "Okay, cool." And they said, you know,

"The money will be ready in a couple of days." And I was able to track that transaction. [00:14:45] Bob: The funds are supposed to be sent almost immediately. But a curious note

comes a couple of days later. [00:14:53] Suzi Beerman: And we got an email from them again, and it said, "Hey, we need um, this verification letter from your bank saying that this is in

fact money that should be going to us." And I was like, wow, I've never heard of that. I didn't know you needed that. So yeah, we forwarded that letter and they got the

money, I mean it did seem weird, but I was like, alright, they've done this before. It's, it's okay. [00:15:19] Bob: So the funds are delivered. Suzi and Gary enjoy the last

couple of days of their vacation and come home expecting there might be real progress on their kitchen, but instead, they get a shocking call. [00:15:32] Suzi Beerman: And 10 days went by.

The designer reached out and said, "Hey, when are we going to get that money?" I was like, well, are you kidding me? "You got it already. You said thanks. I even sent you the

letter confirming that it was for you. What do you mean you didn't get it?" So it was at that point that we realized the money was gone, and we didn't know where it was. And

our designer didn't know where it was, and our bank didn't know where it was. And so we, we had no idea where to turn. [00:16:06] Bob: Where is the $61,000? The bank doesn't

have it. The designer doesn't have it. It's long gone from their bank account. It's just missing. There must be some mistake. [00:16:21] Gary Beerman: Oh right, absolutely.

It, it's just, it, all of a sudden it slaps you in the face and, well wait a minute, what happened? [00:16:27] Suzi Beerman: Well what I was, what I was going to say was, I mean at that

point when we were like, wait a minute, you guys didn't get the money, wa--, wait. It had, it had to have been... did, did it get stolen? Did it get missent? What happened? And at that

point we were still feeling like, wait... I mean we were so naive. At that point we were feeling like, well we're going to get help. Somebody's going to help us. [00:16:56] Bob:

As they search for their money frantically, Gary and Suzi get their first indication the money isn't just missing. There's something wrong with the email that included the wiring

instructions. It looked like it came from their design company, but on a second look, the sender's address was strange. Instead of a .net ending, it ended in .pm. [00:17:19] Gary

Beerman: So um, basically we looked at the email and it was a exact copy of their logo and everything. [00:17:28] Bob: And that's when it becomes clear. The wiring instructions

didn't come from the designer. It came from someone else who jumped into the middle of their email thread with the designer which means the money was sent to the wrong bank. It's

been stolen. [00:17:47] Gary Beerman: I felt like I was kicked in the gut. It was a gut kick. I mean I almost threw up. I, I literally almost threw up. And I, I don't throw up very

often, in fact I don't even remember that last time I threw up. And I, Bob I, I almost threw up. It was just, it was so, it was like somebody sucked the wind out of me and and kicked me

in the gut. [00:18:07] Bob: And now their problems multiply quickly because not only has $61,000 been stolen but now work on their kitchen project has screeched to a halt. The designer

doesn't express much sympathy for Gary and Suzi's situation. [00:18:23] Suzi Beerman: Their lawyer sent us a letter within days of them finding out that we had been robbed and

telling us that we were in breach of contract. All work was stopping until they got paid, and oh, by the way, they didn't do anything wrong and you should stop saying that they did.

I'm like, wait a minute. We just, we're laying on the ground stabbed, and you guys are coming along pouring acid in the wound, like can't you just be decent people and say,

gosh, we're really sorry this happened to you. Let's work out a payment plan. We realize you just lost $61,000. But no, they went against us at that point and it was shocking. It

was like we were already reeling. Yes, so at that point, I mean, like we were literally still shaking, still vibrating from this, this abuse basically, this, this violation, this theft,

still vibrating from the theft and then to be treated like criminals ourselves, you know like, you didn't pay us. Well duh, yeah, I didn't pay you. I tried to pay you. I got

robbed. But, you know, you're not, you're not empathetic, you're not, they didn't care. They didn't care at all. [00:19:41] Bob: They also have you over a barrel.

I'm thinking... [00:19:43] Suzi Beerman: Oh yeah, we didn't have a kitchen. [00:19:45] Gary Beerman: That's a great, great description, Bob. Over a barrel. That's it.

[00:19:49] Bob: I mean if you want to like negotiate back and forth, it's your fault, it's my fault, but you have no standing. [00:19:53] Suzi Beerman: Yeah, you couldn't. I

mean you couldn't. We had already had months and months of no kitchen, and you look at our kitchen at that point and there were cabinets and countertops. There was no sink, there was no

refrigerator, there was no stove, no oven. You know none of the, no dishwasher, that's kind of important. It was, I mean everything was, I was like how can we live this way? We

can't. [00:20:19] Bob: How can they live this way? Isn't there any way to recover the stolen funds? No, says the bank. Isn't there insurance? [00:20:28] Suzi Beerman: Well

guess what, typical home insurance doesn't cover it. When we asked the designers for information about their insurance and, and whether or not they had insurance against this, they

refused to even acknowledge that we had requested the information. [00:20:44] Bob: Hmm. [00:20:44] Suzi Beerman: A lot of things happened along the way that made us feel very alone, you know

very isolated, um... [00:20:54] Gary Beerman: Violated. [00:20:55] Suzi Beerman: Violated, well violated, yeah. I mean but the violation of the robbery, I mean anybody can relate to that

and anybody can expect that when you get robbed of $61,000 you are so angry at the people that, whoever they are that stole from you, that reached into your life and your pocket and your

bank account and took money. [00:21:19] Bob: As they begin to digest the gravity of the situation, their $61,000 has been stolen, their home is in tatters, they have to come up with $61,000

more. [00:21:31] Gary Beerman: That, that's a lot of money to us. I mean that takes out a chunk of our retirement fund which is not going to get interest on it anymore, and, and

it's, you know that's a, that's basically the same as a year's worth, that's more than a year's worth of our Social Security. [00:21:44] Suzi Beerman: Together.

I mean $60,000 was lifted from our lives and it was like it never happened because nobody knocked us over the head. Nobody dragged us in a back alley, you know, and stole our money.

[00:22:03] Bob: After weeks of frustration and dead ends, finally someone seems to care. [00:22:09] Suzi Beerman: So here we are, we've had $60,000 stolen from us. We have no kitchen.

We have the designer telling us that they're going to sue us for breach of contract and stop work. We go to the FBI and we hear absolutely nothing back from them. I had the idea that

well, I don't know what to do, but I know that we should probably report it to the police. So we reported it to our Oro Valley Police Department. Thank God for them. They took us

seriously. They recognized the loss. They recognized the violation. And they investigated. [00:22:52] Bob: It's Detective Deren Jackson who investigates. What really happened to the

money and can anyone be held responsible? With so many of these stories, victims rarely get answers. But in this case, Detective Jackson isn't ready to give up. [00:23:10] Det. Deren

Jackson: Uh, yeah in January, late January of 2024, I received uh this case. It was assigned to me. The process typically a patrol officer will take the initial report. That report then is

assigned to a detective if follow-up is needed. Uh, once I received the report and had a chance to review everything, also included were some uh, copies of the email correspondence between

the victim and the kitchen remodel company. Uh, so I reviewed those as well, and then I contacted the victim in this case, Ms. Beerman. So I spoke with her on the phone is how I contacted

her, and you know naturally she was very upset and she couldn't believe what, what had happened, in, in particular because she had so much history with this particular company. They had

corresponded back and forth on legitimate you know times in the past, and um, so she was just really caught off guard by, you know what, what had happened here. [00:24:07] Bob: So what did

happen here? The money was sent to the wrong bank account, an account controlled by a criminal, or perhaps an unwitting money mule. But how? If Suzi and Gary were corresponding with their

design company over email, how did rogue wiring instructions end up getting inserted into their conversation? There's no way to know who or what got hacked, but somehow, the criminals

were able to monitor their email conversation and jump in at precisely the right moment with fake wiring instructions. This is sometimes called a business email compromise, and it's a

common scam in real estate transactions. We've covered that here on The Perfect Scam. Real estate agents and their email accounts have long been targeted by hackers. With efforts by the

real estate industry to thwart those attacks, it seems criminals are branching out. [00:24:58] Det. Deren Jackson: Oh, so what I can say is the origin of the data breach, for example, was

not determined, uh, therefore, I can't speak to how exactly some, you know, somebody's email history was, was obtained. But there was in fact a data breach because the criminal was

able to access somebody's email account, and then to clearly see where uh, Ms. Beerman and the cabinet company, where they were in the process of this remodel. [00:25:24] Bob: But

somebody was able to jump into the middle of an existing conversation with godlike knowledge of what was happening and then send that note at just the right time saying, okay, you know, I

know you're going to make a payment. Send it here, right? [00:25:36] Det. Deren Jackson: Exactly. Uh, you know, Ms. Beerman, initially she said that the communication began from the

kitchen company with a legitimate email address that she had prior correspondence with. Uh it wasn't until they started to speak, the kitchen remodel company started to speak about

financial information and wire transfers that the business account email address changed slightly from uh what was legitimate to something just a couple of characters different. The victim

in this case, uh Ms. Beerman didn't realize that information because it is really pretty subtle. It's hard to pick up on, especially when you have prior communication that you knew

to have happened attached to now your new conversation with a slightly different suspect email address or criminal email address. [00:26:26] Bob: I mean gosh, it's almost like the

perfect crime, you now? [00:26:29] Det. Deren Jackson: Correct, and, and it wasn't until the victim in this case sent the money and roughly a week or so after sending that money that

she was contacted by the actual kitchen uh remodel company and uh they asked for payment and Ms. Beerman was perplexed. You know she said, "Well I already sent that money and you

already gave me confirmation that you received it." It was at that time that Ms. Beerman realized that her money was not sent to who she thought it was sent to. [00:26:59] Bob: Suzi and

Gary did have copious notes on everything that happened to them, and that gave Detective Jackson something to go on. [00:27:08] Det. Deren Jackson: So Ms. Beerman provided, she, she was

provided with a account number and a routing number on where to wire this money, supposedly to pay for the uh, kitchen remodel you know that that was ongoing and, and in process. So she

provided that account information to us. I essentially drafted a search warrant, uh, to obtain the account details related to who this particular account belonged to where the wire had been

sent. So with that, I drafted a search warrant, um, I sent it to the financial institution to obtain that account information and I was provided with an individual's name and address

uh, that was in Midland, Texas. [00:27:50] Bob: An individual's name... in Texas. The person who received Suzi and Gary's money, at least initially isn't out of the country.

[00:28:00] Bob: So uh, you know, a clear hit like that, how common is that? [00:28:03] Det. Deren Jackson: I've seen it before where it is in the United States. Sometimes the accounts

are overseas, but in this particular case, uh did come back to an individual in Texas, and so with that information I knew my next step which was to contact a particular agency in Texas, and

then to send the reports and the financial information I obtained to the appropriate agency in Texas for them to uh, follow-up on. [00:28:28] Bob: And it doesn't take long before...

[00:28:30] Det. Deren Jackson: After I forwarded the report and the financial documentation to the Midland, Texas Police Department, I essentially was updated by the victim in the case, Ms.

Beerman. She indicated to me, in her speaking with the detectives in the Midland, Texas Police Department, that she indicated she was contacted by the Midland Texas Police Department,

specifically a detective that was assigned this particular case. That detective was able to locate and interview the subject who actually received the money sent uh the victims. [00:29:05]

Bob: So she called you and said, they found the person, right? [00:29:08] Det. Deren Jackson: That's correct. [00:29:09] Bob: Midland prosecutors are still investigating the case, but

at least there's a lead that's very rare. [00:29:17] Det. Deren Jackson: Certainly a lot of times these cases are, lead to a bunch of dead-ends, where we don't have a

successful resolution, and uh for one reason or another, but in this particular case it, it's rewarding when we get the cooperation from an agency in another state, and then ultimately,

uh, the person responsible is located. [00:29:37] Bob: If there's a lead, is there any money that can be recovered? [00:29:41] Det. Deren Jackson: So what I can speak to is when I

drafted a search warrant to obtain the individual's account details, it certainly reflected all of the deposits going into his account from Ms. Beerman, however, at that time when I

received uh the response from the financial institution, I, I learned that there's less than a dollar uh remaining balance in that account. The money had been transferred from that

particular account where it had been sent to another account. [00:30:12] Bob: In other words, there's very little hope she's going to get any money back, right? [00:30:15] Det.

Deren Jackson: Correct. It, most times it's very difficult once the wire transfer is sent that that money is recovered and returned. It's, it's very uncommon. [00:30:25] Bob:

Knowing that there's potential for some justice does help a little, but Gary and Suzi are still staring at the same torn up kitchen. So they make a big withdrawal from their retirement

account. But the bad news keeps on coming. [00:30:41] Suzi Beerman: We can't live this way with no way to cook and so we had to go back and get more money out of our retirement and Bob,

this may be a key point for a lot of people listening, there's no protection for income or any other funds that are lost this way in term... in this case because the money came out of

our retirement accounts, that money becomes taxable when you take it out if you put it into a nontaxable account, right? So that $61,000 became part of our income for 2024, and we will have

to pay taxes on the money that was stolen. [00:31:25] Gary Beerman: Well that's $122,000 now on top of our, our um, Social Security now which is $50,000 for our Social Security, so...

[00:31:33] Bob: Oh my God. [00:31:34] Gary Beerman: So and, and Bob, it's a, there's a third whack in the head, and that is that the money that we're going to need to pay our

huge income taxes this year is going to have to come out of our retirement fund. So we're putting... [00:31:46] Bob: Which will then be taxed again. [00:31:47] Gary Beerman: Yeah, be

taxed again. [00:31:49] Bob: Oh my God. [00:31:50] Gary Beerman: Yeah, it's a triple-whammy. [00:31:53] Bob: And so faced with the triple-whammy, this retired couple makes the difficult

decision to go back to work. [00:32:00] Gary Beerman: Yeah. [00:32:01] Suzi Beerman: Oh yeah. [00:32:02] Gary Beerman: And it's not that I wanted to, it's like, I'm retired,

you know, but um, yeah, exactly. We're going to get that $61,000 back. [00:32:09] Suzi Beerman: We're going to work for it, but we're going to get it back. [00:32:11] Gary

Beerman: Yeah, I have to work for it. [00:32:12] Bob: And Suzi, you're, you're back at work too? [00:32:14] Suzi Beerman: I am a, an independent travel advisor, so I help book

hotels, trips, all kinds of good stuff for people. It's not, it's not a huge moneymaker, but it does keep me out of trouble. [00:32:26] Bob: And you're slowly getting your

$61,000 plus taxes back, right? [00:32:30] Suzi Beerman: Yes, we'll never get it back. [00:32:31] Gary Beerman: Very slowly. I will emphasize the word "slowly." [00:32:34]

Suzi Beerman: Bob, the fact is that we will never get that money back. You know there's no, there's no like victim protection fund, there's no, you know trail that they can go

and claw the money back. It's, you know it's a lot of money for us. It's just never, it's never going to be back. [00:32:54] Bob: But Gary, the chef, well he's

back. [00:32:59] Bob: So uh, what's the status of the kitchen right now? [00:33:02] Gary Beerman: It's, it's done. It's, it's finished, yeah. It is done. [00:33:05]

Suzi Beerman: We're entertaining friends and eating good meals. [00:33:09] Gary Beerman: Yeah, it's, it's wonderful. [00:33:11] Bob: Okay, Gary, Gary, what was the first thing

you cooked in the kitchen? [00:33:14] Gary Beerman: Um, wow, that's a good question, Bob. Um... [00:33:17] Suzi Beerman: Wow, Bob. [00:33:18] Gary Beerman: I think it was probably a,

an omelet. (laughs) I think it was the first morning. [00:33:24] Suzi Beerman: Yeah, we got to break a lot of eggs (laughs). [00:33:26] Gary Beerman: It was the first morning, so I think it

was an omelet. (chuckles) [00:33:30] Bob: Do you remember the first uh dinner party or just entertaining you did after... [00:33:33] Suzi Beerman: We had a party, we had a party um, for our

neighbors to uh, celebrate the new kitchen. And... [00:33:42] Bob: That must have felt good, right? That must have... [00:33:42] Suzi Beerman: Yeah, that was great, that was really great,

and the neighbor that said we should not do the remodel, she was like, "Thank God you didn't listen to me. This place is gorgeous." (laughter) [00:33:54] Bob: The experience

has been exhausting and scary, but in the end, worth it. [00:34:00] Suzi Beerman: I will say this, and I don't mean to, like the money that we spent to have a new kitchen was not

wasted. We, we love our home, we love our neighborhood, we enjoy having family and friends visit us and we entertain and we cook, and we're, we love our life. We absolutely are blessed.

But I don't want this to happen to anybody else. I want people to know how to protect themselves. I want people to know that there really isn't anybody coming to help you. There

really isn't. So before you let go of any money, double, triple-check, and don't, not that people necessarily around you have nefarious intent, they just don't know what

they're doing. They don't really attend to protecting you. So you have to be suspicious. You have to have that, that protective paranoia. Um, you have to help yourself. You have to

take care of yourself. We found the resources that are available to us, there aren't many, and we're really grateful for the investigators that have, have worked on this, and

we're grateful to people like you who are talking to us about it so that other people will not be harmed, hopefully. [00:35:22] Bob: Suzi and Gary have been really surprised how

isolating this whole experience has been. Their financial company didn't help, the designer didn't help, even some of the neighbors had a strange reaction when the couple went

public with their story. [00:35:38] Suzi Beerman: Um, so somebody else in the community um, posted the article and said, "Hey" you know for Nextdoor, like "Hey, Oro Valley,

this happened to one of our own." And then I read the comments which, you know, never should read the comments, but I read the comments and there was so much victim shaming in the

comments. And I was, I was even, even more sad because I get it; people want to think that it's never going to happen to them. That they're too smart, they're too

well-informed, they have resources, they're protected, you know, and there were a lot of comments like, "Well everybody knows that you do this" and "How could you let

that happen?" Like how stupid. And it's like, I'm not stupid. I got tricked. It's a multibillion-dollar industry to trick us. And just because you saw a text come through

and you thought, hah, hah, hah, that's obviously a, a scam, just because you saw an email that come, came through and you identified the misspellings and the Nigerian Prince, ha-ha,

that's a scam. I know how to deal with those. Well guess what, they come up with new things to manipulate us and steal our money every day. [00:36:52] Bob: I find it just so abominable,

and it's the worst part of my job, that people can be unbelievably cruel in these situations. [00:37:00] Gary Beerman: Yeah. [00:37:00] Bob: But that's, that's what out

there, so I'm sorry you went through that. [00:37:04] Suzi Beerman: Yeah, if I had a black eye they would have had a lot more sympathy. [00:37:09] Bob: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely and

in, in many ways it's, you know you could heal if somebody bopped you over the head, right? But this, no, you know you can't quite heal from. [00:37:18] Gary Beerman: That's a

good, that's a good point. [00:37:21] Bob: Wiring money does come with risks. Generally once the money is sent, the transaction is irrevocable. It can't be reversed. It's

important to know these kinds of things happen. [00:37:34] Bob: What is it that somebody who's listening to this can, can learn from this story? [00:37:37] Det. Deren Jackson: I think

most importantly, you know a lot of times the criminals are very good at what they do and, and they, they oftentimes follow a script. They seem, you know, they rehearse, they seem

legitimate. But there are some um, red flags that somebody may, might notice or pay attention to. And, and oftentimes the criminals, they will provide a sense of urgency; you have to do this

now, for example, uh they'll tell you not to discuss what's going on with any other people. For example, if the victim were to go to the bank and try to withdraw some money, the,

the criminal might tell you not to tell the bank employees why you're doing this. You know they’ll; they'll tell you to lie and say this money is for a car I intend to purchase or

you know, some other story. So that, that's a red flag, right? If somebody's telling you not to be honest with your financial institution as to what your intentions are,

that's a red flag. One thing I would also strongly suggest or encourage is just call a verified number that you know to be legitimate, uh, maybe um, you know uh call a family friend,

you know call the business directly with a number again that you know to be a verified number for the business. Don't just respond to the email that you receive with the phone number

attached, because that might not be the correct or accurate phone number. [00:39:03] Bob: And it actually is pretty tricky to make, uh every time I've done it, I'm nerve wracked

about making sure it gets to the right place. Do you have any tips about, specifically about how to make wire transfers more safe? [00:39:15] Det. Deren Jackson: Um, what I would recommend

is, is call your financial, financial institution and have them verify with the business where the money is to be sent. That way there is communication between somebody at the financial

institution and somebody at the verified phone number for the business just to confirm that the account number and the routing number are accurate, and that that particular request was in

fact sent to begin with. I think that would be really important. [00:39:42] Bob: Yeah, and then also that sort of takes it out of the virtual chair, right, a human being's talking to

another human being. It's a, a verification that, that can't be copied by a criminal or imitated or whatnot, right? [00:39:53] Det. Deren Jackson: That's correct. [00:39:54]

Bob: Could the system for all these things be improved somehow? [00:39:57] Det. Deren Jackson: What I would say I think just spending the extra time just to look at the email closely and

taking the time to contact the business directly to verify that communication is legitimate or speaking with a family member or a friend about, you know, this information you received. That,

I think with you know those factors, I think if you were to do that, that that would drastically cut down on the likelihood of becoming or falling victim to this type of crime. [00:40:28]

Bob: And you know I'm, my mother was a very, uh, she was an accountant, so she as always on me for things like this and, and I think, I think this advice follows in a lot of bill

paying. It's always worth checking soon after you've paid a bill to make sure the company got the money 'cause all sorts of mistakes can happen that can lead to late fees or

whatnot. So it wouldn't hurt to just call up a few hours after sending a wire and say, okay, I want to make sure everything's okay here, right? [00:40:52] Det. Deren Jackson: Yeah,

exactly. [00:40:54] Bob: But the way criminals adapt, it's hard to give one bullet proof piece of advice. [00:41:00] Det. Deren Jackson: Yeah, exactly, you know, one thing that we see

a lot of times is, you know we'll patch one hole, for example, but then the criminals, um, are very, you know fluid, and then they'll create three different things that we

haven't seen yet, or that we haven't, you know, dealt with. So it's ever evolving and which makes it really difficult to identify one particular thing that you can do. So

it's um, you know a lot of times we're kind of behind the uh, the curve so to speak on you know when, when these things happen, uh because the criminals are ever evolving their

process and their script, and you know, their knowledge base. [00:41:34] Bob: I'm really glad you said that, because it makes it very hard to give out one piece of advice that's

going to protect people, right? [00:41:38] Det. Deren Jackson: Correct, exactly. I, you know, again, I think looking at those emails closely, verifying the information through the company or

through a person directly who you know to be trusted, uh, those are extremely important things to do. [00:41:51] Bob: And one more piece of advice, take your time with any major financial

transaction. [00:41:58] Det. Deren Jackson: I think that uh, what I would stress the most is just taking the time. Don't, don't be rushed. Uh, if, if the criminal's trying to

rush you, if they're trying to, you know, tell you to do something that just doesn't sound right, take the time to talk to somebody else before you send a wire transfer, or before

you provide any account information. Call, call the company directly. You know, talk to somebody. Uh, verify the information before you respond. [00:42:27] Bob: And if something bad does

happen to you, go to the police. [00:42:33] Det. Deren Jackson: You know, a lot of times there's embarrassment with these types of incidents, right? The victim is embarrassed,

they're educated, they're successful, they can't believe they fell for such a thing, and, and that those are normal feelings to have after something like this happens. Because

again, these criminals are so good and you know when you have a chance to look at it after the fact, you might notice things more than, than when it's actually occurring. So report, I

would suggest to report every uh incident to your local law enforcement agency if you have become a victim of this type of crime. Because sometimes we can have successful conclusions to

these investigations. We can identify a suspect, not always, but we do have instances where that is the case. And if it's not reported to police, there's nothing we can do about

it. [00:43:24] Bob: Well here's hoping Gary and Suzi have many delicious, fun meals in that kitchen. And I hope that for you too. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC

SEGUE) [00:43:43] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can

provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: [email protected], and we want to hear from you. If you've been the

victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: [email protected]. Thank you to our team of

scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC OUTRO) _END OF TRANSCRIPT_