Sextortion scam targeting michigan teen ends in tragedy

(MUSIC INTRO) [00:00:02] Bob: Welcome back to the Perfect Scam. I'm your host Bob Sullivan. A warning about today's episode, it includes extensive discussion of suicide. If you or

someone you love is in crisis, call or text 988 now and you'll receive immediate help. [00:00:32] Lowell Larson: Well, basically I start out and tell, you know who Jordan DeMay was. I

talk about how this occurred over this five-and-a-half-hour span, giving some excerpts of the dialogue that went back and forth, talk about what other law enforcement can do if they have a

case like this. And, uh, just basically opened myself up to question and answers. [00:00:56] Bob: Detective Lowell Larson makes the rounds a lot these days because he was the lead

investigator in one of the most important, most tragic cases of internet crime we've ever seen. He gently but firmly tells the story of Jordan DeMay, and he will help us do that today,

along with Jordan's parents, John DeMay and Jennifer Buta. [00:01:18] John DeMay: You know, Jordan was 17, going on 18, just eight weeks from his 18th birthday, graduating high school

at this point. For us, Jordan was pretty well adjusted, ready to take on the world, you know, he was a great student, amazing athlete. Had a really solid friend, uh, base, and, you know, he

was just, well, well-adjusted and ready to move on. There wasn't a whole lot we were too concerned about. At that point. Everything was falling into place. [00:01:42] Jennifer Buta: He.

Was homecoming king. He played sports, had a beautiful girlfriend, worked a job. He was ready to leave the nest. [00:01:51] Bob: Ready to take on the world. Jennifer and Jordan had a great

mother, son, friendship. [00:01:59] Jennifer Buta: Jordan was a really easygoing kid as far as you know, raising kids. He did not cause me any trouble. We were very, very close in our

relationship. Some of my favorite memories with him is when we would travel for basketball. And we would have a weekend away watching him play and spending time with his team and his

teammates, families, and just bonding in conversations in the car, listening to music. He introduced me to all sorts of music, and that was kind of our thing, was jamming out to music and

his friends would. Always laugh and be like, I can't believe your mom knows these songs. They're definitely not, you know, the most appropriate sometimes. Um, but I knew them all

because of him and we shared that together. Sometimes goofing off and dancing around in the kitchen. That came from a very young age, we started doing that. [00:03:00] Bob: Can you just

throw out a couple of the band or artists names that, that he introduced you to? [00:03:04] Jennifer Buta: Absolutely. We'll start with his number one favorite was Drake, of course,

Fetty Wap, Post Malone, Future, The Weekend. He was really all about the rap and hip hop, so we listened to a lot of that. It's something now that I'm so grateful for because

hearing that music, it brings me back to those memories and I think, wow, that's the first time, the first time I heard this artist is from him and we were at this place in Tennessee,

or you know. [00:03:35] Bob: Not that there weren't challenges, like a lot of young athletes right now, Jordan was still dealing with fallout from missing seasons due to covid and due

to injuries. [00:03:46] Jennifer Buta: Yeah, so on Jordan's freshman year, he tore his ACL. [00:03:50] Jennifer Buta: Oh God. [00:03:51] Jennifer Buta: And that was my worst fear for

him was having an injury that would prevent him from playing the sports that he loved. Unfortunately, the following years when we had Covid, so there wasn't much in terms of. Football

games, and then his senior year, he fractured a bone in his leg, and he didn't fully recover during the season. He made a choice at the end of the football season to remove himself from

playing because he wanted to be able to play basketball. [00:04:21] Bob: When you're an athlete and you can't play, it's terrible. It's really frustrating that you

don't know what to do with yourself. [00:04:27] Jennifer Buta: Absolutely. Those months where we waited for his surgery, I know that those were difficult for him because there

wasn't even a timeline. [00:04:35] Bob: Yeah. [00:04:36] Jennifer Buta: That you could say, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be back. But we got through it. I mean, I'm not gonna

say there weren't nights that we both cried about it. [00:04:43] Bob: Mm mm-hmm. [00:04:44] Jennifer Buta: As a parent, I wanted to see him play and if he was hurting, I was hurting

too. [00:04:50] Bob: Dealing with sports injuries was among the bigger challenges Jordan and his family faced during his 17 years. Until the night of March 24th, 2022, a night, that changed

the DeMay family forever and in some ways changed the internet forever. It began simply enough with Jordan getting ready to go to the beach. [00:05:11] John DeMay: It was a Thursday night.

He was at his mother's house for that week, but he had had to come to our house a little bit earlier. We were getting ready to leave on vacation for two weeks. The next morning on

Friday, we were heading down to Florida for, uh, for a beach vacation that we do every year, and he was really excited about that. And it was one of our, one of our favorite trips that we do

every year. So we were packed and ready to go, and he came strolling into the house. I saw him for the last time at around 10, 10 15 that night. And I just had passed him outside on the, on

the patio and he was rolling his bag in, coming from his girlfriend's house. And I had just told him goodnight. I'm, I'm heading to bed and cut you in the morning. And

that's what I did. I went to sleep. My wife was up finishing laundry, getting the, getting our other two kids bags packed. Jordan was downstairs in his room getting his bags packed. He

was doing some laundry. [00:06:01] Bob: doing laundry packing, saying goodbye to his girlfriend before trip. Normal teenage stuff. And then Jordan gets a private message, a one-word message

from someone he doesn't know. In fact, I'll bet you've received one just like it, probably more than once. The message says it's from a woman named Dani Robertts. It

comes at 10:19 PM. [00:06:25] Lowell Larson: So the very first conversation that occurred between Dani Robertt's profile and Jordan DeMay started out with Dani asking, “Hey.” Jordan –

“Who is you?” Dani – “I'm Dani from Texas, but in Georgia at the moment.” Jordan – “Nice.” Dani – “Yeah. Hope I didn't invade your privacy. Just bored.” Jordan – “Nah, you good.”

[00:06:49] Bob: The conversation bounces back and forth with simple chat like that for about an hour. You can imagine Jordan stuffing clean clothes into a suitcase while chatting, and then

at 11:29 PM… [00:07:02] Lowell Larson: Dani – “What do you do for fun?” Jordan  – “Lift, play sports and listen to music. What about you?” Dani  –  “Sound fun. Well, I like hanging out with

friends and playing sexy games. Sorry, that came out wrong. My bad,” Dani – “Sorry if I got upset. Just bored, to be honest. I thought you might want to do something fun. It is actually a

sneak pic exchange. No screenshots. You're down? It's just for fun though. Nothing else. It's actually a live mirror pic exchange showing your sexy body, no screenshots. You

get what I mean?” Dani – “Yeah. And it's set up view once after viewing it disappears. Of course. I can go first if you like, but you're home, right? Jordan – “Yeah.” Dani – “Cool.

Can you just take a mirror snap showing you're ready when I'm. Then I will go first with the sexy pic.” [00:08:02] Bob: The game goes on for another hour, two hours. The pictures

are innocent enough at first, Detective Larson says. Within three hours after that first, “Hey,” Jordan sends a revealing picture of himself and Dani pounces instantly [00:08:20] Lowell

Larson: After Jordan had sent an unclothed picture at 1:23 AM, Dani Robertt”s account sends three photo collages with a message, “I have screenshot all your followers and tags and can send

this nudes to everyone and also send your nudes to your family and friends until it goes viral. All you have to do is cooperate with me and I won't expose you.” Jordan – “What I gotta

do?” Dani – “Just pay me right now and I won't expose you.” Jordan – “How much?” Dani – “$1,000. Deal or no deal?” Jordan – “I don't have a grand.” [00:09:02] Bob: Whoever is on

the other side of the keyboard is now extorting Jordan, and he doesn't know what to do [00:09:11] Lowell Larson: And this goes back and forth for a time and then is basically negotiated

down where Jordan agrees to pay $300. And Dani agrees to accept that and not expose him. So he sends $300 via Apple Pay. Dani tells Jordan that she's deleting everything, [00:09:33]

Bob: But Dani doesn't. The cruelty and the pressure continue, [00:09:39] Lowell Larson: Dani comes back and says that she wants more money to delete his images off of a different

platform. And so they go back and forth and they start negotiating again. And basically Dani is looking to obtain another $800 to delete the images off of Google. [00:09:59] Bob: And the

demands continue. Jordan tries desperately to figure out what to do. The person making these demands exerts maximum pressure. [00:10:10] Lowell Larson: You know, a troubling thing is the

Dani Robertts account would, she's asking for more and more money, would start giving it a countdown. Next message would be 14. Next one 13, 12. You know, and so every message coming in

was the countdown, which is, uh, kind of very powerful for someone that's very scared. [00:10:32] Bob: Scared, and from his messages, feeling out of options. [00:10:37] Lowell Larson:

And basically Jordan tells her that he doesn't need him to have $500, and eventually Jordan agrees to send the remaining money that he has, and that's $55. [00:10:49] Bob: Jordan

sends every last dollar he can cobble together, but the cruelty gets so much worse. Jordan begins to express how desperate he feels that he doesn't want to go on and five hours into

this nightmarish encounter… [00:11:07] Lowell Larson: And at one point Dani Robertts at 3:28 AM says, “Okay, then I will watch you die a miserable death.” And Jordan says, “Please, bro.”

Later on at about 3:43 AM Jordan says, “It's over. You win, bro.” Dani – “Okay. Goodbye.” Jordan – “I am KMS RN” [00:11:30] Lowell Larson: Which stands for, “I'm killing myself

right now.” And then he says, “Because of you.” Dani – “Good. Do that fast or I will make you do it. I swear to God.” [00:11:41] Lowell Larson: And the message that I read to you was the

last one that he sent to Dani Robertts. [00:11:54] Bob: Morning breaks and John DeMay gets up and thinks about final preparations for that family beach trip they will go on after Jordan gets

home from school that day, but a text from Jordan's mom causes immediate alarm. [00:12:07] John DeMay: Jennifer had texted me and asked me if Jordan was at school that day, and I said,

“Well, that's kind of interesting.” So I got up, my wife and my, my two girls were up already getting ready for school. And I looked out the kitchen window and I saw Jordan's car

still parked in the driveway at 7:30 and that was really odd. He's usually long gone by 7:10, 7:15, and frankly, he never, ever misses school and you know, so I didn't know if he

slept in or, or what was going on. So I went downstairs into his bedroom and I opened up the door and I found him. He had shot himself in his bed. [00:12:44] Bob: Detective Larson is already

at work that morning when the 911 call comes in. [00:12:50] Lowell Larson: Actually, I heard it live over the radio. My partner, Jason Hart and I were in the office and we had the radio on

and we heard the dispatch go out that a 17-year-old male was found deceased by a gunshot wound, and one of our deputies was dispatched to go to the scene. We heard the call go out and we

looked at each other. We knew it. We were gonna be responding to this, so we gathered up our equipment and headed out the door and responded to the scene. The first investigation was just

basically a death investigation where we're trying to determine the manner and method of death and to assist the medical examiner and, and that determination. So we had the obvious of a

suicide, but what was really troubling was we didn't understand why. [00:13:39] Bob: Nobody could understand why. The shock is overwhelming, even for an experienced detective. Nothing

makes sense. A cursory glance at Jordan's technology offers precious few hints. He deleted his online conversations before he took his own life, but only a few hours later, the grieving

parents hear from Jordan's girlfriend. She had communicated with Dani Robertts also. [00:14:03] Lowell Larson: at about 2:27 AM Jordan's girlfriend, Kyla received pictures and

collages of Jordan via Instagram from the Dani Robertts account. That message. Was not read till later that afternoon after she had learned that Jordan had died. [00:14:23] Bob:

Jordan's girlfriend reaches out to his parents to say that she'd had this dialogue with Dani Robertts and whoever was messaging from that account had sent her pictures too. Tried

to extort her also. [00:14:37] John DeMay: I think his girlfriend had logged onto her account later on and saw those messages, uh, communicated with that person a little bit when she sent

that picture to, uh, Jennifer and I, then we were like, holy crap, something's happening here. So we obviously got it right to, uh, Detective Larson and, and, uh, they started the ball

rolling with their investigation. [00:14:57] Lowell Larson: That evening when I received the call, I was actually at home because I had provided my business card along with my cell phone

number to the family. And I told them that they're gonna have lots of questions and you know, hopefully we can provide them whatever answers we can as those arise. And I guess the

unanswered question that we had of “why?” was starting to unveil itself. [00:15:22] Bob: Jordan, it now appears is the victim of an intense, focused, sextortion scam. [00:15:29] John DeMay:

Right, sextortion is basically extortion with a fancy name, I guess I would say. And, and frankly, until this happened to my family, I didn't even know what Sextortion was. I am a

former police officer and I, and I have a criminal justice degree and, you know, there's always, there's always scams, there's always extortion, which is generalized, but

sextortion specifically is a. Is a extortion scheme when, uh, somebody, some person is typically using a hacked or a fraudulent, uh, account. Typically we're seeing him on Instagram and

Snapchat, uh, right now. And these perpetrators reach out to victims like my son, Jordan. And they start off with mild innocent friend requests that turn into just generalized conversation.

And then eventually, uh, they, they entice the victim into sending a nude picture of themselves. And that's happening in a couple different ways for the men. Uh, the, these

perpetrators are enticing 'em with sexual conversation, kind of slowly turning up the heat on their conversation and turning into more sexual. A lot of times these fake accounts already

have nude images of, of women waiting in the, waiting in their, in their files to send these pictures at the right time. They'll send a picture, uh, maybe a topless picture to the

victim saying, this is me topless. You know, will you send me, send me a picture of yourself. And then they convince the, the, the victim to send a picture of themselves. And once that

happens, they feel, they, they realize that it's not, it's not the person that they've been talking to. And it's, it's probably a man from some other part, possibly

other part of the world. In our case, it was, um, so. Uh, then the extortion starts. They usually ask for money, try to negotiate money and make payments through cash, various different cash

apps, and they just pursue the, the victim intensely. They pursue them swiftly. A lot of these perpetrators are, are educated on how to do it. This is kind of their job. They know the right

things to say, when to say them, how much pressure to put on, how little pressure to put on, make serious threats against them and their families if they don't comply. [00:17:35] Bob:

The investigation into Jordan's death begins in earnest then. [00:17:39] Lowell Larson: Right. We, we pretty much knew that it was a sextortion based on the limited information that we

had received from the girlfriend, and that was Friday night. His death occurred Friday morning. I had worked on obtaining the information from Meta. Which is, this occurred over Instagram,

so Meta controlled Facebook and Instagram. Sunday. They had, late Sunday they had produced the transcripts and along with all the additional information I had requested, and it was early

Monday morning that I started reading the transcripts and I guess the only way to describe it is just chilling. [00:18:14] Bob: Those transcripts, chilling as they are to read. Also provide

essential clues for Detective Larson. He vows to make someone responsible for what happened to Jordan. [00:18:26] Lowell Larson: It is a very lengthy process to actually get to the point

where you identify the people behind the keyboard that are actually doing it. We narrowed it down to Lagos, Nigeria that Monday when I received the transcripts, because not only did we have

the transcript, but we also had a bunch of other information that I had requested from the social media account, mainly the IP addresses. So we knew we were dealing with Nigeria that Monday.

[00:18:54] Bob: This is both good news and bad news. They have a hot lead, but in truth, they don't know where it really leads to. [00:19:03] Lowell Larson: And that is when I reached

out to the FBI, knowing that this was going to completely exhaust, any type of our resources that we have available to us to further track these suspects. [00:19:18] Bob: And don't you

have a feeling at that point that's along the lines of, well, they're in Nigeria, this is hopeless. [00:19:23] Lowell Larson: Right. And that was basically the general attitude of

most people when we were sharing this information with other law enforcement agencies and stuff, and that's kind of the general attitude we have on most any scam is once we get outside

the United States, it's very difficult for us to do anything [00:19:41] Bob: Difficult is understating it. As far as anyone knew, no one from Nigeria had ever been successfully

prosecuted in the US for a crime like this, but that's when Jordan's parents decide they won't take no for an answer. They take a huge risk. [00:19:58] Lowell Larson: The

parents made this a public story, which is a huge step. You know, in, in our profession we, we deal with death investigations as a result of suicide and it's something that you just

don't put out in a press release. And I believe it was the following Wednesday, the death occurred on Friday of, I believe it was the following Wednesday, we put out a press release

telling the public what had happened and that press release really well, one, it shocked the entire community. Shocked the whole world. Actually. There was news, international news stories

about this, and had it not been for that press release, which basically pulled at the heartstrings, anyone that read it, I don't believe we would've got the support from the DOJ to

push this forward. [00:20:45] Bob: Jennifer and John agreed to talk publicly about their son's tragedy, and that gets the wheels of justice turning. There are a few other breaks too.

[00:20:55] Lowell Larson: I already had a very good working relationship with our local FBI agent John Fortunato, so it was nothing for me to jump on the phone and start giving him a rundown

of where we're at, what we got going on, and him being able to spin up the resources that we need. The next relationship, which was just unbelievable that it occurred, is the former

sac, which is the special agent in charge of Michigan, so it's the FBI agent. That's in charge of all of Michigan FBI agents. James Tarasca. He used to be the league at, or the

legal attaché in Nigeria. So he, he had already worked with the same officials in Nigeria that we needed to work with on this case. So he had that personal connection already in place. So

that was tremendous. And he actually flew to Nigeria to request extradition directly. [00:21:53] Bob: And so for what Detective Larson believes is the first time ever in August, 2023, two

Nigerians are extradited to the US to face criminal charges for the crime. They're two brothers in their early twenties, Samuel and Samson Ogoshi [00:22:09] Bob: And there must have

been some element in Nigeria as well, since this was an international story that, that they would be more willing to cooperate than in, in a similar case. [00:22:18] Lowell Larson: Correct.

The way it was explained to me is that basically the Nigerian government is tired of having a reputation of being involved in a lot of scams. [00:22:29] Bob: In April, 2024, the two brothers

plead guilty to sexual exploitation, and in September they're sentenced in a federal courtroom in Marquette. Not far from Jordan's home. [00:22:40] Bob: What was the room like?

[00:22:43] Lowell Larson: I guess how you would expect it when you have a grieving mother and father telling about how Jordan was. It's, uh… [00:22:52] Bob: it's hard to imagine

anything more painful, honestly, God. [00:22:55] Lowell Larson: Very, yeah. Very, very emotional. Yes, [00:22:59] Bob: Very emotional. [00:23:03] Jennifer Buta: It was awful. Nobody prepares

you. When you become a parent to sit in a courtroom with the people who last spoke to your child and saw him and encouraged him to take his life, [00:23:18] Bob: And yet I saw one story

written about you, something that I, I think when when people hear it, they're going to be overwhelmed with how big your heart is. This is what I read it. “I miss my son more than I can

describe to you, but the mother of those men is probably missing her two sons as well. She too is really just an innocent bystander of sextortion.” That's an unbelievable act of empath

by you, [00:23:40] Jennifer Buta: I mean, as a mom to a boy, I, I can't help but think that she's missing her sons too. They, they have been here for a year and a half and she had

no part in this, just like I didn't. [00:23:53] Bob: the two brothers are sentenced to 210 months in prison. [00:23:58] Lowell Larson: You know, they got basically 17 and a half years

in federal prison and a lot of people said that's not enough. That's, uh, it should have been longer. And I guess I was just happy it occurred. Going into this investigation, there

was a lot of people that felt that we weren't gonna be able to extradite him. And that's exactly what happened. We, we did extradite 'em and they were sentenced. So I was

just very happy that they were sentenced here in federal court. So nothing will bring Jordan back, but to bring the case to that conclusion and get the people arrested is just phenomenal.

[00:24:36] Bob: And Detective Larson doesn't stop there. A set of other people aided the crime too. Many of them were also held accountable. [00:24:44] Lowell Larson: The investigation

also was done to follow the money, and what we discovered is the Apple Pay that was used that Jordan had attempted to pay with or that he did pay with, was sent to an individual in Atlanta,

Georgia. And that individual was also arrested in a sense, entered a plea. In federal court. But the investigation into that individual led into the discovery of four other individuals that

were acting as, we call 'em, “money mules” and they were also arrested federally. So the way this occurs is the payment on a platform that you can only use in the US such as Apple Pay

or Venmo or something along those lines, goes to the money mule. The money mule converts the money into Bitcoin. And then sends it to either the scammers directly or their boss or other

people that they're affiliated with. And for them doing it, they get a, the money mule gets a certain cut of the money. [00:25:44] Bob: Um, but boy, I had so many chills about this

story, but I'm just thinking whoever this person in Atlanta was who accepted $300, right? When you engage in that kind of behavior, you just never know what you're enabling, and in

this case, you're enabling this, this unbelievably heinous crime, right? And that's, and that something for someone to think about is in the middle of this. [00:26:04] Bob: As you

might imagine, Jordan's dad has mixed feelings about the prosecution. He says it hopefully provides comfort for dozens of other families who've been through a similar tragedy by

his count, more than 40 sextortion related suicides, but… [00:26:20] John DeMay: There's a part of me that would just love to get into a ring with them and take their life with my own

hands. I, I mean, there's just so much of that as a, as a father, and, but you know, that's obviously not the way things work here. And, uh, I have a bachelor's degree in

criminal justice. I'm a former police officer. I have to, I have to trust the system because it does work. I know it doesn't seem fair because there's no amount of time in

jail or prison that would ever make this better for any of us, but I am very thankful that we have arrests. I'm extremely thankful that we had a prosecution and a sentence of these 40

some families, 44 families in the last few years, there's only a couple of us that have prosecutions that even have suspects in custody. So it's a horrible thing. It is very

emotional, but, um, I'm very, very thankful that we had this opportunity to be able to hold people accountable because not only for our family and for justice for Jordan, in some sense,

I think it really sends a message, uh, and I know it has sent a message, um, especially to Nigerians and some other parts of the world that the United States, just because we're, you

know, on the other side of the planet with an entire ocean in between, doesn't mean that you're safe doing what you're doing. That message was loud and clear, things like this

and the hard work that the FBI did and the hard work that Detective Larson did and, and the advocacy that, that we're trying to do and legislative changes. These are all things that

have to work together in unison to affect the change that needs to happen. [00:27:54] Bob: So what change needs to happen? Jordan's death raises a whole wide set of complex issues.

Recall that horrible night began with a simple one-word message the kind many of us receive on a regular basis. [00:28:09] John DeMay: At this point I've been speaking all over the

world really and traveling and presentations and parent nights and law enforcement conferences and in Washington DC and, and what I'm finding is, especially from the law enforcement

community, that the sextortion stuff in the last couple of years has gotten so rampant that most feel that it's really not even a, an if you're a teenager and get exposed to this,

it's when you are going to get exposed to it. To some level, and we all, we all get these random messages from random different people, from different parts of the world and, and friend

requests and things and, and oftentimes those are the very beginnings of what could be a sextortion scheme. There's a lot of groups and, and individuals that are doing this at a very

high volume. It's a numbers game. [00:28:55] Bob: These text messages that we're all getting right now where it, it could be just something like, “How are you?” Or it could be,

“Hey, I'm in Seattle” 'cause I have a Seattle area code. [00:29:02] John DeMay: Right. [00:29:03] Bob: “Where should I go to dinner?” or whatnot. But, and, and behind that might be

someone starting a sextortion scheme. [00:29:08] John DeMay: That's correct. Yeah. And you almost have to assume that at this point. Um, and when I talk to teenagers and parents, I

tell them that's what it is, you know, because it. It's probably not anything else. People do reach out and there are people that have good intentions of meeting other people on

the planet, but you know when, when some really amazingly beautiful woman is just reaching out to you randomly and then wants to, you know, now we're into your conversation and wants to

talk about sex with you, there's probably a pretty good indicator that this isn't what it seems. [00:29:35] Bob: And I know your son's story shows it can happen, it can

escalate very, very quickly, right? [00:29:40] John DeMay: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, if you looked at every single sextortion suicide that's happened, it's happened, you know,

under six hours for sure. Most of 'em, there are a few that have drug out over time, but a lot of 'em are literally within 30 minutes to two hours. [00:29:54] Bob: They've

tested these scripts, I'm sure, and then they can manipulate really, really anybody, right? [00:30:00] John DeMay: Yeah, a hundred percent. And in our case, uh, particularly, and, and,

and probably a lot of others, fast forwarding, you know, with the information that we all have now, the perpetrators, um, from Jordan's case were, were they were educated and trained by

a online group called the Yahoo Boys. And the Yahoo Boys was basically a, a loosely organized group that put together basically a training manual they had, you could go right on YouTube.

The, the video's up for were up for years. You could learn about sextortion, learn how to do it, how to get your victims could purchase scripts from them. Uh, they taught you how to get

hacked accounts and buy materials, everything. So everything you need to know to learn how to do this particular crime was right on YouTube for anybody to see. And our group of suspects

used that organization and were trained how to, to how to do it. It shows the professionalism in this industry and in this type of crime that young people don't understand and parents

don't either. And I, I tell young people that it's not your fault, right? I mean, this is, this is a crime. And these people are professionals. They know exactly what to do and

what to say and how to say it. They know how you're gonna act. They know what you're going to say. These are all things that they've done time and time and time again. So

they're very well read in, in what happens. And, um, I try to stress that to them. And, uh, that's, I think that's the biggest piece. So when they understand, Hey, this

isn't, you know, I made a mistake, but this isn't my fault, you know, it really is not [00:31:31] Bob: so warning parents and teenagers, really anyone with a cell phone that they

will be targeted by a extortion scam. That's the first thing John wants, but he wants more change. He wants tech companies to do more. [00:31:45] John DeMay: At the end of the day, the,

the social media companies are, are the one that are creating the atmosphere for all this to happen. It's really unfortunate as I meet, uh, more whistleblowers, um, from these

companies and meet politicians and major players in the game, it's, it gets scarier and scarier and scarier. [00:32:02] Bob: Jennifer also wants criminals around the world to know that

thanks to the successful prosecution of our son's attackers, well, criminals shouldn't feel safe just because they are far away. [00:32:14] Jennifer Buta: I think that's a

huge message, that it doesn't matter that you're in a different country. You can be found, you can be arrested, and you can be held accountable for what you've done. I hope

that it's a deterrent for people. I know in Nigeria, you know, for this crime, the punishment is not harsh at all, and so that's not really a deterrent for them there. And knowing

that they can be brought here and face our justice system. Hopefully that prevents them from, you know, taking it to this level where they're telling children to take their lives.

[00:32:52] Bob: Both John and Jennifer spend a lot of time talking about Jordan's death now, hoping they can do as much as possible to prevent other tragedies [00:33:01] Bob: What kind

of reactions do you get when you, when you talk to people about this? [00:33:06] Jennifer Buta: I mean, there's several, it depends on, you know. The day for me. Sometimes, sometimes I

feel better in talking about his story because if I tell someone I've just educated them and hopefully they'll tell someone, and that gives me hope that another family won't

have to go through what I've gone through. And sometimes it's really difficult to talk about it because you're constantly reliving the nightmare of what did happen to Jordan.

I get an overload of messages through my social media, of parents saying, thank you for sharing this story. Because I told my kid about it and it happened to them and they knew what to do.

They remembered Jordan's story. Wow. And they came to me for help. I also have parents that have reached out to me and said, this happened to my child. I don't know what to do. I

don't know what to do. I don't know where to go with the law enforcement things. Can you help me with this? And even yesterday, I received a message from actually our local

government offices, someone contacted them trying to reach me because they were going through that situation and they wanted to talk to me. [00:34:20] Bob: That's an amazing thing that

you're doing, but gosh, that also feels like such a, a burden to be picking through all these emails is you have to be customer service to the world. That sounds like a lot. [00:34:29]

Jennifer Buta: It is. Sometimes it gets heavy and I can't get to everyone. Um, at one point it was just, it was too overwhelming to respond to everyone. [00:34:40] Bob: One point that

Jennifer wants to make sure parents here and law enforcement hears is that without Jordan's girlfriend coming forward to report the sextortion message she received. Jordan's

parents probably would never have learned the truth. [00:34:55] Jennifer Buta: Absolutely. That was when I found out what happened to Jordan, that was one of the first thoughts in my head

was, how many kids has this happened to? And their parents think that they just took their own life, but don't know that there was actually something else behind it because they

didn't think to check their social media. Or maybe it was deleted from their social media like it was in Jordan's case. And you know, one of the things that I think we've

learned through Jordan's case is this has taught law enforcement about financial sextortion, and that when they come upon a case where someone has taken their life, maybe take that

extra step and check if it was something like financial extortion. [00:35:37] Bob: The most important message they want to share is to reach a child, a teen who might find themselves in what

feels like a desperate situation. And make sure they know that help is available. Make sure they know to reach out. John takes such calls and messages all the time. [00:35:54] John DeMay:

Well, I, I can tell you there's, there's hundreds of stories, hundreds of them, and it, it really, It gives me the fuel to, to keep going on the awareness side for sure. And it,

and it, and it provides me with purpose to push for change legislatively and, and the other things that I'm doing. But just last week, last, it was last Thursday night. Last Thursday

night, I did a presentation at our local middle school for sixth grade, seventh grade, and eighth grade. We did three individual presentations on sextortion for each of those grades. And

that was about eight weeks ago, 10 weeks ago. I did that right when, right before, uh, Christmas break. I think it was, and last Thursday night at about eight o'clock at night, I was

sick as a dog. I had the flu covid, something was happening. I was out for days and I was riding my couch and I had a Facebook messenger pop up, and it was a 14-year-old student at that

school that said, John, I need help. I know you came to the school and talked, but I honestly don't remember what you said, but I need, I need some help. And as I, you know, I got right

on it and I started chatting and he was just extorted 15 minutes before that, 20 minutes before that sent an image. Wow. And he was freaking out. So I was able to talk him off the ledge,

and I messaged with him for about an hour. You know, every, every scenario is a little bit different. This, I wanted to try to get on the phone with this. Young guy and he just wasn't

interested in talking. He just wanted to message and that was totally fine. I'm like, yep, we can totally, we can message, it's totally fine. Whatever you're comfortable with.

And I just kept engaging with him. It's like a hostage negotiation. You just want to keep them communicating, keep him talking. You know, I, at one point I even, I even sent him a

picture of Jordan and said, Hey, this is my son. He's gone today. I wish every day that he would've taken the, the two minutes to walk upstairs at three o'clock in the morning

and come and get me. And I, I don't, I don't get that. And I, and I don't want this to be you. I want you to go tell your dad, you know, he's going to appreciate you for

this. And so we're just trying to keep it positive and, and really make him understand that it's not his fault really being a, he, he's really a, a victim of a really heinous

crime right now. And, um, he needs to treat it that way. Just, uh, talked to this kid and I, I told him about Jordan and, you know, told him how strong he was because he, you know, reaching

out and, um, this is the right thing to do and it's not your fault. And we went through everything. And by the end of the night he had messaged me back and said, “Hey, I just, I really

appreciate the help. The cops are here. I told my dad and really, I really can't thank you enough.” And, um, you know, and it just all worked out really good. I've, I've been

following up with him in the mornings and stuff before school just to make sure he is good. And, you know, that's the stuff that, that makes a difference because when someone asks,

“Hey, can you come to the school and talk?”, It's like, well, you know, “yeah, I guess so let's do it. And uh, and then you get stuff like that, that happens and, and then the

answer is, “Of course I will.” Right? [00:38:33] Bob: We began this episode explaining that Detective Larson gives plenty of talks about sextortion now. He has a lot of important things to

share with parents and kids. He often shows the dialogue we had him read earlier between Jordan and Dani. [00:38:48] Bob: When you show this to groups, uh, what kind of reaction do you get?

[00:38:51] Lowell Larson: I mean, there's, you can hear a pin drop in the room. It's, uh, very chilling. [00:38:57] Bob: Have you ever had somebody come up to you, you know, after

a talk or, or maybe a day later or something and say, you know, “Hey, can we talk, this is happening to me,” or, or, “You know, someone, I know this has happened to.” [00:39:07] Lowell

Larson: yeah, I've, it hasn't occurred at following the presentation, but for years now, we've, you know, been public about this case and I've received numerous calls

from even friends and family saying that they know of someone that this happened to. In fact, uh, one person I heard, he said, you know, that thing, he went and talked to his parents and he

says, you know, that thing that happened to that kid and Marquette, that's happening to me right now. So that's exactly what the message we're trying to put out there is that

obviously we tell people don't send anything out online that, you know, you wouldn't want on the front paper type of things, but, and not to send naked images. But the reality is

it's gonna happen. And the message that we wanna send to people is, please don't do it. But if it does occur, please tell your family or friends and reach out for help. Don't

you know. Obviously don't do what Jordan did, and you know, there's programs that we can do. There's things that we can do to help minimize this. In fact, there is a program

run by. The National Center for Exploited and Missing Children, we often call it NCMEC off of the acronym, and they have a program called Take It Down. And that program is NCMEC working with

family of minors that have some type of sexually exploited image out on the internet, and they will do everything they can to try to remove that image from the internet. So that's a

tremendous resource that's out there. We also tell everyone to, if this happens to them. Is to stop communications with the person regardless of whatever threats that they do to.

Disable their account, but don't delete the account because if we need evidence off the account, we don't want them to delete it. Screenshot anything they can regarding any

information and to contact their local authorities along with obviously contacting friends or family. [00:41:04] Bob: I can't help but ask this question. This story is incredibly hard

to hear, honestly. Uh, but you do this every day. How do you handle working with this, these sort of horrible crimes? [00:41:16] Lowell Larson: I guess it comes down to someone's gotta

do it and uh, obviously we're dealing with this, a horrible, horrible situation. We can't bring Jordan back, but what can we do to go after the people that did this to him and then

prevent it occurring to other people. So that's where I find my strength. [00:41:38] Bob: What does Detective Larson want people to learn from what happened to Jordan? [00:41:43]

Lowell Larson: Well, and I think it, it's not just about sextortion, it's just what your podcast is about scams. So just don't think well. You know this happened to a young

male and I'm not a young male or, or whatever. Think about the basics of the scam is that when you put a cell phone in your hand or utilize a computer, you are now potentially a victim

to anyone in the world and you need to be very careful with what you do on that device. And you gotta be very careful of people contacting you on that device and verifying who you are

talking to. Very common. What we see in these scams is it's an unsolicited contact, which we have here. You have the rapport building, you have the pressure that's put on someone,

for instance, the, the, the scam of someone impersonating a law enforcement agency and saying, you have a warrant for their arrest and, and putting that stress on them about having to do

something right now, or you're gonna be arrested. You know, in Jordan's case it was, you have to pay me right now, or you're gonna be exposed. So the, so the themes are the

same, and that pressure often causes people to do stuff that later on they look back and they're like, oh, that was, why did I do that? You know, so you just gotta slow down. You gotta

verify who you're talking to. For instance, like I said earlier, with the law enforcement scam, if someone says they're contacting you from the Marquette County Sheriff's

Office and they have a warrant for your arrest, you know, there's nothing wrong with saying, well, I just need to verify who you are. I will contact the sheriff's office and who

should I ask for? And so you, you know, independently determine what the correct phone number is, and you call. And you try to verify that. So, you know, in, in Jordan's case, it was

the trusting of the, what someone told them or who, who they were, you know, trusting of a profile. And it's, as you know, you can be anyone or anything on the internet. And so. There

was that trust. And then the other cautionary tale I have is trust of the technology. For instance, in this case, they're using a, a segment of Instagram that allows the picture to

disappear after a certain amount of time, and it doesn't allow for a screen capture. But it was simply that technology was simply overcome by taking another device and taking a picture

of the original device. So if you know mm-hmm. Like, like Snapchat, if, if it doesn't allow you to screenshot it. Because of the, the platform or however it's set up, or if it

sends a notification, if you screenshot it, if you just take another cell phone and put it over and take a picture of your cell phone with the image on it, you've just overcome that

technology. So people are, you know, trusting of the technology and that you can't do this, but you know, there's always a way, there's very often a way that you can defeat

that technology that people have the trust in [00:44:38] Bob: Detective Larson also includes in his presentations, a piece of advice for parents that, I think it's just so wise, and

perhaps for some of you counterintuitive. [00:44:49] Lowell Larson: I believe the most prevalent reason why kids don't tell their parents something bad happens online is because

they're afraid to lose their internet privileges. So, you know, if, if you're a parent that has the attitude, well, if my kid shows me that, that's it, they're not gonna

have a cell phone. They're not allowed to use this anymore. I look at it a different way. I look at it as thank your child for being so mature to bringing that information forward to

you and that you know that you can trust them, because if something bad happens, you will be made aware of it. So I think that's the attitude shift that we need to have as parents is

that if something bad happens online, we don't want the nuclear option of we're taking away all their privileges. If they bring something forward to you, I think they need to be

congratulated for having that maturity. Obviously, you know, we can have a courageous conversation of what got them, got them into that point, but we need to really harness that of that

maturity that they put forward. [00:45:50] Bob: Keeping that open line of communication between parents and kids is absolutely essential, and so is having these sometimes difficult

conversations about sex, but. It's so much easier said than done. Jennifer has some wisdom about that. [00:46:05] Jennifer Buta: I think that parents need to have open conversations

about sextortion, just like they do with warnings about anything else to their children when they're growing up. You know, if that's about alcohol or substances or driving. I think

that it needs to be a normalized conversation with your family that this can happen, and if it does, even if you fall into it, you need to seek help from an adult because it spirals. So

quickly that it's hard to tell what it is to do. And even for the kids, you know, I think they need to know that they are the victim in this no matter what they are being pursued for

the wrong reasons and. There is nothing worth taking your life over. There are so many people that want to help you. If you find yourself in this situation, there is light at the other side.

[00:46:59] Bob: It, it must be such, I mean, you as a parent, you have hard conversations all the time. Right? A lot. Especially when, once you have teenagers. But this conversation strikes

me as particularly like really, really challenging. Do you have any suggestions as to how to even get started? [00:47:13] Jennifer Buta: One of the things that I have suggested and that,

you know, schools have done is talk about Jordan's story or talk about another children's story that this happened to. I think that's a really good icebreaker to open it up

and then go into you know, what to do if it does happen, because it is a real thing, and that's what parents need to realize. It's a real thing and your child isn't an

exception from it. You know, Jordan was about to turn 18 years old. There was absolutely no reason for me not to trust him or to take his phone away to investigate what he's doing on

social media. He was all set to go to college and that made him the perfect target for this crime because it made him vulnerable of being exposed and being judged when he had all of this

going on for him. So if it can happen to my son, it can happen to anyone. And having those conversations, that is our greatest asset right now to prevent things from happening to kids.

[00:48:21] Bob: How does John keep going? Keep giving presentations. Keep agreeing to interviews like this one with us at _The Perfect Scam_ after such a painful experience? [00:48:31] John

DeMay: I honest, the answer is, I don't know. I really, I really don't. I've always been a strong person in some sense, but when you lose a child that is crippling, um,

absolutely crippling. But I think the story in itself, and really starting right back from day number four or five, Jordan dies on a Friday morning. And picture comes out, goes to law

enforcement. Law enforcement spends the weekend trying to, to get meta to release this transcript. Transcript got released Sunday, I believe, Sunday night late. I think we were notified

either Sunday night or Monday about what actually happened to Jordan. So from that moment on is I think was almost like a natural feeling for Jennifer too, I imagine. And all of us in the

family just felt compelled to let our community know what was going on because everybody in our community was, was shaken by this. Literally everybody. We live in a small town of about

20,000 people and it's, everybody was just absolutely upside down with what happened. So when we found out it was sextortion and what would happen and all these things were going on,

we're like, we gotta let people know. I mean, what if this is what if this was a high school kid that did this to Jordan? We had no idea at the time. And, uh, maybe there's other

victims, obviously they're running through their friend groups and this is how this thing works. We have no idea. There could be a dozen other kids that are getting sextorted as we

speak right now. We have no idea. So the long answer to that is we felt like, hey, we're, we're gonna let the public know. And, and the sheriff was very open about allowing us to a

press conference and just saying, “Hey, you know, we don't comment on suicides normally, but you know, this is not a suicide. This is what happened. And we wanted to let everybody know

and please be aware.” And we did that. And the, the response from everybody was just overwhelming. I mean, so supportive and, and thankful. And I think we, at that moment, for me anyway, I

felt like, okay, this is, um, this is something that we have to keep pushing for now until we can figure out what's going on. It really took its own its own form and grew its own legs

and, and, and turned into what it is today. But at the end of the day, to answer your question is, how do I do it personally? I think it's the, it's the fuel from the, the stories.

It's the fuel from the community in the very beginning and the support, and it's like “You know, keep the fight, keep it going. We gotta find these guys. This is, you know, this

is, this is serious and you're gonna help other kids, and thanks for, for letting us know. And we had no idea this existed.” And, and then when, once, once it started getting into

regional news and then eventually hitting national and international news, then those stories and that compassion and support really started pouring in from every corner of the planet.

That's when you start realizing how big this thing really is and how much of a problem it is. When you're meeting all these people, [00:51:01] Bob: What's the one message that

you really wanna make sure gets through? [00:51:04] John DeMay: I think there's a couple messages. There's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things to consider.

You're certainly right there. There's a lot of moving parts to this stuff, and I think the biggest thing for young people, I, I'd say something different to the, to the young

crowd versus the parents versus law enforcement, but I'm talking to students and young people. I think the important thing is to, is to realize that the stuff that's happening

online is mostly false and fake, not really true, and you, you can't put a lot of stock in what's happening there, and you aren't who you are today because of the followers

and numbers of likes you have. I mean, those that give you temporary endorphins that make you feel good about things, but looking out the window when you're driving down the road and

going on vacation and having dinner with somebody that you enjoy your time with is, is way more important than being stuck on your phone and absorbed into this like alternate reality that

parallels your, your real life. And the further you, you sink into that parallel universe, um, the, the less healthy it becomes. And I want young people to learn that they need, they can

have that parallel universe, but they need to understand that it's, that it's not a real universe. It's, it's, it's a persona. It's fake, it's fraudulent,

it's um, you know, it's just not, it's not a basis of reality. And so I try to, I try to make young people understand that, but it's really difficult 'cause

there's, there's just so, they're so tied into it, but. At the end of the day, they're gonna use it. They're gonna, they're gonna be victims of, of body shaming

and, and bullying, and they're gonna be victims of all sorts of things that happen online. And it's to what level? Right? And not only to what level, but to what capacity are you

able to process what's happening? To be able to get yourself out of it or be aware that it's happening and move on to something else. But if you keep your mind open to, to the fact

that some of this stuff is not what it seems to be and you just need to shut it down sometimes or move on. [00:52:48] Bob: And you said you had a, a special message for law enforcement as

well? [00:52:51] John DeMay: So my message is just encouragement. It's like, listen, if you have these situations where you know these kids in your community or the parents are telling

you, “Hey, this isn't right, something's not right with this, you know, we're going on vacation in the morning, there's no reason why you would've done this.” Right?

There has to be a little bit more legwork that we should do and, and we are up against legal procedures with having evidence for search warrants and all kinds of things that have to come

into play that are challenging. But just go on that extra mile and, and. Helping that, that out and hopefully that there'll be some resolve there at some point. I just wanna make sure

that, you know, law enforcement is, is keeping that in mind when they're dealing with, you know, parents on these, on the back end of these complaints. [00:53:29] Bob: And once again,

this is all about making sure that you're approachable, right? If someone has a perception of that. Law enforcement's going to treat them badly, they're less likely to come

forward. [00:53:37] John DeMay: Yeah. [00:53:38] Bob: Part of the problem. Yeah. [00:53:39] John DeMay: Yeah, it, yeah, it sure is. It's getting way better, like I said, and law

enforcement is doing an amazing job. And what I would recommend to people, and what I do recommend to people, especially if they're not getting anywhere with their local law

enforcement, is to make sure that they're talking to the ICAC detectives. Then that's the International Crimes Against Children. It's like a specialized group of detectives.

Most agencies with any size have an ICAC detective or two. We have a, my department here in Marquette is probably 30 officers, maybe 40. We have an ICAC detective. So what they do is they

have the ability to understand sextortion a lot more because they deal with it very heavily and they're, they're well versed on what it is, how it works, where it's coming

from. They know how to handle it. They know the resources to, to work on things. Whether the case is kind of fresh or old, whether we're gonna push this with the FBI and other agencies

to try to work a case from it. Is it stale? Those sorts of things where, you know, regular street cop probably doesn't have a lot of that background and it's not their fault.

It's just not what they do. [00:54:38] Bob: What do you want folks who hear this, uh, to remember about Jordan? [00:54:42] John DeMay: Um, I think the biggest thing is, is Jordan was

just, um, he was a bigger than life type of person and he always had that type of personality. He was always just happy and bouncing around and had a really open thought process. And his,

his friend group was very diverse. He was the kind of guy that just got along with everybody. And we didn't realize it obviously at the time. I mean, we even, we recognized those things

as a parent and then, and we're sitting here looking back, hindsight being 2020. His purpose, I guess, was, was that times a million. Right. And I, I think the, the thing that people

need to know about Jordan was that he, he did this when he was on earth for his 17 years, but now he's just doing it at a much larger scale and creating positive things, um, to the

masses at this point around the globe. And that's just so important. And I wish he was here today to see what was happening. And unfortunately, a lot of our, our heroes in our, in our

world, in our country, and, and in our personal lives, heroes are usually not with us today. Heroes end up being a victim of some sort and pushed all the way to the limits. And heroes are,

are never usually alive to see how much heroism they've created. And, and I wish Jordan could, 'cause he really is. He's doing some big things. [00:55:53] Bob: What a

beautiful tribute. [00:55:56 Jennifer Buta: Jordan was this larger than life person I, and I don't think he knew it. And so for like this to happen to him and be this you know, landmark

case and have this media attention. Sometimes I just sit back and I'm like, of course. Of course this happened with you because you were this bright light and the center of attention.

Here you are in the afterlife still holding that. It's just that it's no longer your voice. It's my voice with your story, [00:56:27] Bob: Your voice with his story,

that's very beautiful. [00:56:30] Jennifer Buta: Thank you. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:56:37] Bob: For _The Perfect Scam_, I'm Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:56:56] Bob: Bob: If you have

been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and

guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: [email protected], and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know

someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: [email protected]. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer,

Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or

wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC OUTRO) _END OF TRANSCRIPT_